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The fall of Terran
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| WeiSeR | Date: Sunday, 2014/June/29, 11:01 AM | Message # 1 |
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Sunday, January 4th, 2015
Group: Forum Visitor
Messages: 13
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| *Salutes*,
I don't know if you have read this article about the fall of Terran on team liquid website, but I would like to start a discussion about that. Here's the link : Team Liquid
I'm Terran and I rarely complain about balance, cause it doesn't really matter since I'm not a pro player. This article brings statistical evidence that Terran race is Imbalanced right now and that Blizzard should do somethnig about it.
What do you think?
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| ShoCKwAvE | Date: Sunday, 2014/June/29, 11:22 AM | Message # 2 |
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Sunday, June 15th, 2014
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Messages: 24
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| I think you cant go bio for over 4 years and expect to keep winning, especially against a race with massive aoe, that is slow to adapt, but once they doo... well it isnt pretty, and taeja going 17-0 in his last tournament clearly shows how up terran is.
most terran players I know absolutely-masters,gm range- refuse to change anything about their play. I think alot of the nerfs especially the hellbat one clearly helped, when a pro player (innovation) goes from beating the hell out of everyone to practically dissappearing its a good thing, what gets me though is how terrans look at things like nerfs, hellbats for example are still damn good, but because they needed that upgrade, terrans said nope I get it I'll just die and hellbats practically dissappeared for a while. Thats like saying collosus need this upgrade, but nope I'll just die if I take time to get it, which is ridiculous, or not getting a ebay up early to stop dt or oracles, and actually believing if you do you'll die to 2 base blink, which isnt true.
Then you have players like avilo just adding to the fire with his mech sucks arguement, despite his very presence in gm is a indication that mech works at least up to gm and most players will never make grandmaster, so kinda kicks the mech sucks arguement in the balls. Last I checked T only had like 4-5% difference in winrates, been a while since checked though.
I find it really hard to be sympathetic to terrans myself, considering the first year and a half was all TvT finals,3 rax pushes etc, kinda feel they got what they deserved and are alot closer to being balanced right now then really ever. Terran dont really need many adjustments, what terran and sc2 in general needs is people to stop being poison, namely players like avilo, and the players that believe if T isnt winning most things then T is up, if T wants to keep going bio and get raped for another 2-3 years then really its on them.
Message edited by ShoCKwAvE - Sunday, 2014/June/29, 11:58 AM |
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| WeiSeR | Date: Sunday, 2014/June/29, 12:09 PM | Message # 3 |
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Sunday, January 4th, 2015
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Messages: 13
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| Have you read the article? Added (2014/June/29, 12:09 PM)
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You talk about teaja and the people you know while the article present global stats that are far more reliable.
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| ShoCKwAvE | Date: Sunday, 2014/June/29, 12:27 PM | Message # 4 |
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Sunday, June 15th, 2014
Group: Forum Visitor
Messages: 24
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| yeah I read the article after it was posted, didnt really see anything I havent seen in dozens of qq posts on bnet forums from whining silvers and avilo. Most the ones in higher leagues try to switch to protoss, stream it and fail miserably because they dont either dont understand PvP or get raped in pvz trying to do one of those 100000(which can all be determined by gas counts btw) so called all ins, main reason they do good in pvt is because they understand how T works and exploits those weaknesses, which after 4 years is something every pro does, which is why T doing bad atm, although the oracle buff I never really understood I mean wtf lol.
I can say that from personal experiance because I've played my terran gm friend when he offraced as P and I beat him consistantly i win more then I lose, with his mechanics he should roll me with the 'easy' race regardless of game knowledge, but it just isnt so. But I've lost pvt against him all but I remember 2 times since sc2 came out and Pvt was till just recently my best mu
Simple truth, if T really was underpowered or imbalanced, I mean really underpowered then you'd see good bit of T professionals switch to Protoss or zerg, they arent going to stick with a race that they dont have any chance making money with, if there's a race that they can abuse to win with that isnt a 'dead' race they would jump on it because its all about money.
every T professional,gm that I've seen,heard and watched on stream, has failed miserably when it comes to switching to the easier op races. Then go back to their up race and do just fine. Most fall off the earth because styles evolve and P and Z learn to exploit even smaller timings,the biggest current example being scarlett vs polt when she 6-1 him then him raping her in mlg because he actually decided to adapt his build and get thors.
When T is winning you see people change their tune real fast and suddenly say T is becoming more balanced, but god forbid if they arent winning
I dont mean to come off as a asshole.....but the shoe fits and most terrans wear it constantly then well.... :P
edit-stats also are determined by sample size over all, but also blizz wont balance something just off winrates or stats alone, I cant really feel bad myself I still remember beta warhounds destroying everything and T's saying it was balanced., just cant help but feeling like T balance= T winning everything. shrugs, maybe t is really up though, if thats the case then blizz will most likely take care of all the T problems in lotv like they did for P in hots
Message edited by ShoCKwAvE - Sunday, 2014/June/29, 12:38 PM |
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| KhalDanis | Date: Sunday, 2014/June/29, 1:15 PM | Message # 5 |
 Saturday, February 7th, 2015
Group: Officers
Messages: 161
Status: Offline
| Quote WeiSeR (  ) This article brings statistical evidence that Terran race is Imbalanced right now and that Blizzard should do somethnig about it.
Not really.
It is a REALLY long QQ post, opinionated up the whazoo with cherry picked "evidence" to fit the argument, rather than a demonstration of the statistical truth... There is so much crap written in there that just makes me think the poster just wanted to waste his time writing an entire satirical post on Terran's "demise" to elicit a negative reaction, while he chuckles at the world.
Just to mention a couple of things I really found stupid about the whole thing is:
- using racial representation as "statistical evidence" that Terran is underpowered = complete BS since representation is purely dependent on participation rate. Lower participation rate = lower representation rate, and participation rate is NOT dependent on winrates, which is a FAR more accurate measure of balance since Winrates SHOW you who is winning more vs others. IF Terran had a lower winrate compared to other races consistently, which is not the case btw, it would be more telling than stating how many Terrans decided to stop playing for a variety of reasons, including stupidity (no offense) considering how much unfounded WHINING this race of players has demonstrated over the past 4 months. I have not seen a single race do something so inane since the Zerg QQ in WOL pre-Infestor buffs, and we ALL know how poorly-conceived THAT idea ended up being.
- Cherry picking games where the Terran players made stupid mistakes and lost as "evidence" of Terran being underpowered.
Such stupidity, no matter how long-winded, cannot be denied.
Quote ShoCKwAvE ( ) Simple truth, if T really was underpowered or imbalanced, I mean really underpowered then you'd see good bit of T professionals switch to Protoss or zerg, they arent going to stick with a race that they dont have any chance making money with, if there's a race that they can abuse to win with that isnt a 'dead' race they would jump on it because its all about money.
This is the MOST important truth to note about that stupid article.
Now, you shall feel the power of the Protoss...
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| Nazty | Date: Sunday, 2014/June/29, 3:45 PM | Message # 6 |
 Saturday, March 21st, 2015
Group: Forum Visitor
Messages: 220
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| I switched to terran because their fun to play and it was my race in BW. Also, protoss n zerg are overused past gold.
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| Cryptys | Date: Sunday, 2014/June/29, 8:09 PM | Message # 7 |
 Saturday, March 8th, 2014
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Messages: 121
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| Ya I saw this thread and thought about posting it here. For the most part I agree with the arguments he gives but about halfway through the article it really begins to come off as whining with no proposed solution. Not that giving a solution would do anything. There are plenty of reddit or bnet threads with proposed "solutions" that get laughed at by players of other races.
Also reading the statements above is kinda lol ^.^ I'd love to see ShockWave play Jacobis' Protoss since he can beat a GM Terran since they can't understand the P race Kappa.
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| Oblivion | Date: Sunday, 2014/June/29, 8:15 PM | Message # 8 |
 Thursday, April 24th, 2014
Group: Graduate
Messages: 832
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| While I'm not on the same level of game knowledge that you guys are on, I agree that Terran is unbalanced compared to the other two, but due kt the extreme complaining and whining of Terran players sorta nullifies their argument to a point.
Yeah, it sucks, but complaining over and over about it obviously won't help anything since you don't have control. So instead of doing that, why don't you be constructive with your energy and time and work on beating the cheese.
Just my two cents.
Formerly Known as A1a3a1(ConFed)
:|: Inducted as a Confederation Legend in 2009 :|:
Commandant :|: Fleet Admiral :|: Domestic Advisor :|: Vice President :|: President
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| KhalDanis | Date: Monday, 2014/June/30, 1:01 AM | Message # 9 |
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Saturday, February 7th, 2015
Group: Officers
Messages: 161
Status: Offline
| Quote Oblivion ( ) Yeah, it sucks, but complaining over and over about it obviously won't help anything since you don't have control. So instead of doing that, why don't you be constructive with your energy and time and work on beating the cheese.
This.
I don't agree that Terran is underpowered, since the basis for that argument is shaky at best; however, I DO agree that Terrans are doing a lot more complaining than strategizing, to try and fight the issues they are facing. The EXTREME amounts of QQ we are seeing makes their complaints more and more moot by the minute since there is almost no effort being made to see things more rationally.
The few Terrans we see accept that the issues exist and move on, and try to find solutions are players like Polt who have taken a hard look at their gameplay and have won high profile tournament games at moments when Terran was considered weakest.
This in itself shows that Terran players need to follow their old motto to the WOL Zerg QQ:
"Less QQ, more Pew Pew"
Now, you shall feel the power of the Protoss...
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| Cryptys | Date: Monday, 2014/June/30, 5:28 AM | Message # 10 |
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Saturday, March 8th, 2014
Group: Forum Visitor
Messages: 121
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| Quote Xecutor ( ) This.
I don't agree that Terran is underpowered, since the basis for that argument is shaky at best; however, I DO agree that Terrans are doing a lot more complaining than strategizing, to try and fight the issues they are facing. The EXTREME amounts of QQ we are seeing makes their complaints more and more moot by the minute since there is almost no effort being made to see things more rationally.
The few Terrans we see accept that the issues exist and move on, and try to find solutions are players like Polt who have taken a hard look at their gameplay and have won high profile tournament games at moments when Terran was considered weakest.
This in itself shows that Terran players need to follow their old motto to the WOL Zerg QQ:
"Less QQ, more Pew Pew"
^ lol
Also baneling drops are viable gaiz.
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| Belgarath | Date: Monday, 2014/June/30, 6:15 AM | Message # 11 |
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Sunday, January 11th, 2015
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Messages: 601
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| you know, if people didnt complain about how shit terran was, they would complain about how OP toss is... OH WAIT that was last weak...
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| KhalDanis | Date: Monday, 2014/June/30, 7:03 AM | Message # 12 |
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Saturday, February 7th, 2015
Group: Officers
Messages: 161
Status: Offline
| Quote Cryptys ( ) ^ lol
Also baneling drops are viable gaiz.
Quote Inflamary ( ) you know, if people didnt complain about how shit terran was, they would complain about how OP toss is... OH WAIT that was last weak...
Thanks for proving our point, Cryp.
Now, you shall feel the power of the Protoss...
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| Nazty | Date: Monday, 2014/June/30, 7:28 AM | Message # 13 |
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Saturday, March 21st, 2015
Group: Forum Visitor
Messages: 220
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| Protoss n Zerg can replace an army within seconds after losing it. Terran basically can't lose a major conflict or they're screwed. I came to the conclusion to just never lose a battle.
What is considered whining and whats considered a valid statement? I reckon Protoss players just generally take any criticism as whining.
/thread
Message edited by Nazty - Monday, 2014/June/30, 7:29 AM |
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| Edred | Date: Monday, 2014/June/30, 1:22 PM | Message # 14 |
 Thursday, March 27th, 2014
Group: Forum Visitor
Messages: 245
Status: Offline
| I don't think there's an imbalance to be honest. There's a lot of things T users throw at me that makes me nervous as all hell. Although I will admit T is a much harder race to play than the other 2. I used to feel like all 3 races were pretty easy to use prior to HoTS, but these days I don't think I can make masters with my random anymore, and in WoL that wasn't even a struggle. And I'd say my T is to blame for that, Z is easy race to play too.
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| WeiSeR | Date: Tuesday, 2014/July/01, 5:32 PM | Message # 15 |
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Sunday, January 4th, 2015
Group: Forum Visitor
Messages: 13
Status: Offline
| http://www.teamliquid.net/forum....-july-1
David Kim's thoughts on balance and Terran:
We’ve listened to recent feedback and wanted to provide our thoughts on HotS balance since the last patch.
1. At the top pro level, Terran looks to be slightly weaker than the other races, and we’d like to start testing possible changes.
2. In terms of recent tournament wins, the three races are performing quite evenly.
3. Protoss and Zerg both seem to be performing well at the top level in terms of tournament wins and overall performance.
We’d like to be prepared with a general Terran buff while continuing to carefully evaluate Terran performance in both TvP and TvZ. We have some ideas for general Terran buffs that we’d love to get feedback on. Additionally, we’d love to hear feedback on other areas that could help Terran while also making the games more exciting to watch and play.
Medivac
Medivac harass has been getting weaker since the beginning of HotS due to players improving at defending against them. If we increase the strength of Medivacs, we’d not only help out Terran on both matchups, but also help provide even more action-packed games to watch. We wonder if buffing the unload speed or increasing the duration of the speed boost slightly would help in a positive way.
Widow Mine
Widow Mines are quite core in both TvP and TvZ. They’re also one of the most exciting units to watch and create lots of diverse moments depending on the players’ interaction with them within each engagement. We’re currently considering a slight increase to the splash radius of Widow Mines, which we believe could be a good direction to explore.
Obviously, nothing is final since we aren’t even proposing specific numbers yet, but we’d like to start discussions going that would allow us to start a balance test map soon.
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| ShoCKwAvE | Date: Tuesday, 2014/July/01, 10:14 PM | Message # 16 |
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Sunday, June 15th, 2014
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Messages: 24
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| medivac buff-wont change anything, might make escaping muta's a little bit easier if boost is buffed, but thats about it, shouldnt change anything in pvt.
widow mine-just going to make mid/lategame tvz mech even stronger vs zerg when most zergs already have problems vs turtle mech into mass ravens-avilo would be pleased
David kim's been known to be a idiot.
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| ForevrBronze | Date: Tuesday, 2014/July/01, 10:19 PM | Message # 17 |
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Forum Private
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| Terran's OP
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| SuiChoy | Date: Tuesday, 2014/July/01, 11:43 PM | Message # 18 |
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Saturday, May 17th, 2014
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Messages: 27
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| Widow mine buff is good will help balance out the race distribution in the GSL, but the main problem with the game is still the unit design.
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| Edred | Date: Wednesday, 2014/July/02, 2:06 AM | Message # 19 |
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Thursday, March 27th, 2014
Group: Forum Visitor
Messages: 245
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| The last thing I need is a widow mine buff =[. I'm already completely terrified of widow mines as it is.
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